– Tynysbek Sháripuly, ǵylymi jobalardy qarjylandyrý isine sheteldik sarapshylardy tartyp, otandyq ǵalymdardyń ǵylymi jumysyna baǵalaý isi ǵylymnyń damýyna qanshalyqty yqpal etti?
– Qazaq ǵalymdarynyń ǵylymi jumystaryn sheteldik ǵylymi sarapshylardyń baǵalaýy ǵylymnyń oń baǵytta damýyna yqpal etti dep nyq senimmen aita alamyn. Bul táýelsizdik jyldary engizilgen batyl qadam bolǵany anyq. Sol kezde qazaq ǵalymdarynyń ǵylymi jumysyn ózge eldiń ǵalymdaryna baǵalatý máselesin kóptegen adamdar qoldaǵanmen biraz ǵalymdarymyz qarsy boldy. Olar memleket qarjysyn sheteldik sarapshylarǵa jumsamai óz elimizde qaldyrýdy qup kórgen edi. Biraq sol kezde ministrliktiń qabyldaǵan baǵdarlamalary otandyq ǵylymnyń yntymaqtastyq aiasyn keńeitýge baǵyttalǵan edi. Sondyqtan kópshiliktiń qoldaýymen qazaq ǵalymdarynyń ǵylymi jobalaryn syrt elderdegi sarapshylardyń saralaýynan ótkizý mindetteldi. Bizder ǵylymi jumystarymyzǵa ǵylymi-tehnikalyq saraptama júrgizip, otandyq ǵylymnyń qanshalyqty damyǵanyn aiqyndaý múmkindigine ie boldyq. Sonymen qatar ǵylymi yntymaqtastyq aiasy barynsha arta tústi. Qazirgi tańda sonyń oń nátijesin kórip otyrmyz.
– Jalpy bul júiege qai salanyń ǵalymdary qarsy boldy? Olar qandai ýáj aitty?
– Negizinen qoǵamdyq ǵylymdar salasynda eńbek etip júrgen áriptesterimiz qarsylyq tanytty. Olarǵa biraz aýylsharýashylyǵy salasy ǵalymdary qosylǵanyn bilemin. Agrarlyq salada eńbek etip júrgen áriptesterimiz sheteldiń ǵalymdary bizdiń qupiialarymyzdy bilip alady dep alańdaýshylyq tanytty.
Al qoǵamdyq ǵylymdar bolsa, ádebiet, mádeniet, tarih, ekonomika salasy ǵalymdary sheteldik sarapshylar Qazaqstannyń qoǵamdyq ǵylymdarynan jetik bilmeitindikten, saraptama kezinde tómen ball qoiyp tastaidy dep qaýiptendi. Menińshe, qoǵamdyq salada eńbek etip júrgen ǵalymdardyń alańdaýyna negiz joq. Iá, sheteldik ǵalymdar Qazaqstannyń ishki saiasi ahýalyn, mádenietin jetik túsinbeýi múmkin. Biraq qoǵamdyq ǵylymdar boiynsha ǵylymi zertteý jumystaryn júrgizýdiń ádis-tásilderi álemge ortaq. Qaita elimizdegi qoǵamdyq ǵalymdardyń álemdik ǵylymi ortamen tyǵyz yntymaqtastyqqa túsýi mańyzdy emes pe?
Qazaqstan saiasat pen ekonomika boiynsha beitarap memleket emes qoi. Elimizdi órkendetý jolyndaǵy túrli reformalardy damyǵan elderdiń is-tájiribesine súienip, júrgizip kelemiz. Mundai jaǵdaida qoǵamdyq ǵylymdardy oqshaýlaýǵa bola ma? Árine, bolmaidy. Kerek deseńiz, bizdiń kóne ádebietimiz ben mádenietimiz ózge de órkeniettermen tyǵyz bailanysty emes pe? Osyndai jaittardy esepke alsaq, qoǵamdyq ǵalymdardyń alańdaýyna negiz joq ekenin kim de bolsa, baiqaǵan bolar edi.
– Tynysbek aǵa, endi ǵylymi jumystardy sheteldik ǵalymdarǵa ǵylymi-tehnikalyq saraptama júrgizýdiń tiimdi tustary jaiynda aitsańyz?
– Aitaiyn. Ǵylymi saraptamanyń qandai paidasy bolǵanyn ózimniń mamandyǵym – matematika ǵylymymen bailanystyryp aitqanym jón shyǵar. Keńes zamanynda Qazaqstannyń matematika salasy Odaq boiynsha orystar men ýkrainderden keiingi úshinshi orynda turdy. Al toqsanynshy toqyraý jyldary segiz, toǵyzynshy orynǵa deiin quldyrap kettik. Budan keiin jalǵyz matematika emes Qazaqstandaǵy jalpy ǵylymnyń qandai deńgeide ekenin anyqtaý múmkin bolady. Sol kezde bizde himiia, fizika, biologiia ǵylymdary joǵary deńgeide damydy dep júrdik. Óitkeni, atalǵan salada ǵalymdar kóp boldy. Al ǵylymi jumystarǵa ǵylymi-tehnikalyq saraptama júrgizgenimizde Qazaqstanda matematika ǵylymy joǵary deńgeide damý úrdisin joǵaltpaǵanyn baiqadyq. Buǵan matematik ǵalymdarymyzdyń sheteldik sarapshylardyń qaraýyna jiberilgen ǵylymi jumystarynyń basym bóligi joǵary balǵa ie boldy. Osy saraptamanyń arqasynda qazaq ǵylymnyń damý degeii qandai dárejede ekenin baǵamdadyq.
Budan bólek álemdik ǵylymi keńistikpen yntymaqtastyǵymyz arta tústi. Qazaq ǵalymdary impakt-faktory joǵary ǵylymi jýrnaldaryna ǵylymi eńbekteri jaiynda maqala jariialap, joǵary siltemelik kórsetkishke ie boldy. Osylaisha TMD elderi arasynda ǵylymi-tehnikalyq saraptama júiesin jetildirgen birden-bir el atandyq. Qazirgi tańda kórshiles elder bizdiń jolymyzǵa túsip jatyr. Óz basym muny táýelsizdik jyldary ǵylymdy damytýdaǵy sátti reformanyń biri dep esepteimin.
Qazirgi talap boiynsha qarjylandyrýǵa usynylǵan ǵylymi jumysty eki sheteldik, bir qazaqstandyq sarapshy qarap shyǵyp, retsenziia jazady. Munda olardyń aty-jóni qupiia saqtalady. Budan keiin ár baǵyt boiynsha ǵylymi keńestiń músheleri sarapshylardyń ǵylymi joba jaiyndaǵy rentsenziiasymen tanysyp, sheshim qabyldaidy. Ózim ǵylymi keńestiń múshesi bolǵanymda retsenziialarmen tanysqanymda qazaqstandyq sarapshylardyń bura tartatynyn kezderi bolatynyn, al sheteldik sarapshylardyń ǵylymi jumysqa ádil baǵasyn beretine talai ret kóz jetkizdim. Sol kezde múiizi qaraǵaidai akademikterdiń ǵylymmen qanshalyqty ainalysyp júrgeni baiqalyp qaldy. Ata-babalarymyz «syrt kóz synshy» dep beker aitpaǵan ǵoi. Osy rette ǵylymi jumystarǵa saraptama jasaý úshin ǵylymy joǵary deńgeide órkendegen AQSh, Batys Eýropa elderindegi ǵalymdar tartylǵanyn aita ketýimiz kerek. Olar álemdik ǵylymi úrdistiń qai baǵytta damyp jatqanyn eskerip, qazaq ǵalymdarynyń ǵylymi eńbekterine ádil baǵasyn berdi. Sondyqtan ǵylymi jobalardy baǵalaýda ózge eldiń sarapshylaryn tarý óte qajet dúnie dep esepteimin. Bul jumystar qazaq ǵylymnyń ósip-órkendeýine óz paidasyn tigizip otyr.
– Sheteldik sarapshylar týrasyn aitady deisiz ǵoi?
– Iá. Sheteldik sarapshylar ǵylymi jumysta ǵylym bar ma, joq pa ekenin qolǵa ustaǵandai anyq kórsetip beredi. Sonymen qatar ǵylymi jumystyń keleshegi bar ma, joq pa, sonyń bárin sarapshylar anyqtap beredi. Qazaqstandyq sarapshylar áriptesteriniń jumysyn qaraǵanda kóńil jyqpastyqqa urynǵany baiqalyp turdy. Al sheteldik sarapshylar ii qanǵan bylǵarydai bylq-sylq etkenin baiqamadym. Týrasyn aitady, máimóńkelemeidi.
– Qazaq qoǵamynda ǵylymǵa qatysty kózqarasty ózgertý kerek siiaqty. Bizde ǵalymnyń eńbegi qandaida bir qoldanbaly dúnieni ómirge ákelý kerek degen túsikke saiady. Al qazir ǵylymnyń damýy kúrdelenip ketkeni ózińizge málim. Aitalyq, sizdiń ǵylymi jumysyńyz ǵylymdaǵy úlken máseleniń bir bóligin ǵana sheshýi múmkin. Al halyq sizden qoldanbaly dúnie kútedi. Qalai oilaisyz, halyqtyń sanasyndaǵy (tipti kásipkerlik orta dep aitsaq ta bolady) osy bir qasań qaǵidany ózgertýdiń kezi kelgen siiaqty?
– Óte durys aitasyz. Qazir ǵylym kúrdelinip kettk. Qandaida bir ǵylymi jobadan qoldanbaly dúnie kútýdiń zamany ótken. Qazir álemde ǵalymdardyń jumysyn qoldanbaly dúnie arqyly baǵalanbaidy. Ǵylymy damyǵan dúniejúziniń jetekshi elderi ǵylymnyń damyp jatqanyn impakt-faktory joǵary ǵylymi-jýrnaldarǵa jariialaǵan maqalalarmen jáne olarǵa dúniejúzi ǵalymdarynyń jasaǵan siltemelik kórsetkishimen ólshenedi.
Qazir ǵylym tolyqtai jahandanyp ketken álem moiyndamaǵan ǵylym – ǵylym emes. Muny bir sátke de esten shyǵarýǵa bolmaidy. Bizder ǵylym men qoldanbaly ǵylymnyń arasyn ajyrata bilýimiz kerek.
Aitalyq, iPhone jyl saiyn (tipti budanda qysqa merzimde bolýy múmkin) smartfonnyń jańa túrin shyǵarady. Muny ǵylymmen shatastyrýǵa bolmaidy. Bul – tehnologiialyq jetistik. Munyń ǵylymi negizi baiaǵyda salynyp qoiylǵan. Tek injenerler temirdiń ornyna basqa asyl metaldardy qoldanyp, ai saiyn iPhone-nyń jańa túrin shyǵarady. Al onyń ǵylymi negizi ózegergen joq. Jańa iPhone qoldanysqa enýi bul ǵylymi jańalyq emes. Bul – dizaiyndyk jetistik, bolmasa, injenerlik aqyl-oidyń nátijesi.
Iá, mundai úrdister AQSh-qa kól-kósir paida ákelip otyr. Kez kelgen ǵylymdy qoldanbaly deńgeige jetkizý isimen Batys elderinde jekelegen kompaniialar ainalysady. Al bizdiń aýzymen qus tústegen iri kompaniialarymyz sheteldiń tehnologiiasyna aýyz ashyp otyr. Sondyqtan bizdiń halyqqa ǵylym men tehnologiialyq jetistiktiń ara jigin ashyp beretin kez keldi. Buryndary kópshilikke arnalǵan ǵylymdy nasihattaityn basylymdar bolýshy edi. Qazir onyń biri de joq. Sondyqtan halyqtyń ǵylymnyń damýyna qatysty túsinigi eski uǵym-túsinikpen qalyp qoiǵan.
Suhbattasqan Nurlan Jumaqanov
